洋森破 发表于 2014-8-17 10:51
第一页就有
我就是看到有人提，才去找来链接看的。但是其他人并没有对这事发表意见，算是一种默认吗？
谁说菅野不能有缺点，是你们黑的地方就根本不对啊。黑她有印象的曲子近年来不多这种还有讨论，黑阿波罗比cb水平差这不是搞笑么。。。改编和原创怎么比？古典 jazz、swing和bebop怎么比？你说同是jazz怎么不能比，那请问你想从什么地方比？不还是你不讨厌的技巧么。还有说mf以前不能听的，不喜欢jazz和techno就说写的什么玩意也是醉了。纠缠配乐不如原来合适也是，再不合适能比泽野和尾浦不合适么？泽野人声近年用的一年比一年出戏。
没人作评论，我就去国外的论坛上找了找。
http://ykdb.monkey-pirate.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=85d8a2130440cdc4a27727dafa8f2c12&topic=8.0
这个贴就是关于菅野洋子涉嫌抄袭的曲目的一个报告帖兼讨论帖，从2004年到2014年都在更新。看完后你会发现，在上面的那两个帖子以外，还有很多。
但是与之相比，有个我觉得更有意思的现象。很多粉丝，甚至是一些自身就是音乐人的粉丝，在知道这一事实的前提下，依然对菅野洋子做了很高的评价。
比如帖末的两位
@nitrus
I have been a very big fan, admirer and worshipper of YK for about five or six years now. My admiration of her was never diminished even by these plagiarism allegations – the immensely diverse body of work she has been able to put together over the years is remarkable and even if we removed all of the songs which some suggest are copies of something else, we would still be left with one of the most talented and prolific composers around.
I am a musician/composer myself and I have to admit: sometimes I cannot imagine being able to create meaningful music without first being inspired by somebody else’s music – and not only inspired by its feeling and mood, but also often by actual harmonies, structures or arrangements, at least in the initial phases of developing an idea. The point is being able to take it somewhere else, to the point where all or almost all of the initial inspirations have been replaced by something yours.
The vast majority of YK’s songs that bear a resemblance to something else are in this basket, or just a little bit beyond it. A prime example, which I don’t think anybody has brought up yet, is the final orchestral piece of the Smooth in the Shell CD. It was probably inspired by this track called Morning in Montana by Don Harper:
http://open.spotify.com/track/6CRQKnop5ZY1UZG3KwmgIT
Both are beautiful and gentle pieces. The opening is almost the same, and I leave the legitimacy of its lifting to your judgment, but Yoko takes the song to a very different place eventually. If she had altered the opening a bit more, nobody would have suspected a thing.I repeat, most of the songs discussed here are a very similar story. All composers, apart from maybe a handful of the crème de la crème, just work this way at least some of the time, deal with it. I think Yoko is just being more honest about it, since she does not try to forcefully hide her inspirations.
That being said, there are a few examples of really shameless ripping off, such as Cloud 9, Cyberbird, Sniper’s Theme and some others, of course. I strongly believe the original artists must have been communicated with and compensated. There have been lawsuits about much less obvious inspirations and many have been won, whether they were justified or not. It’s very unlikely none of the original artists never learned about this and never pursued legal action.
As much as I am intrigued by this, as a listener I don’t really mind or care. Yoko is a far better composer, arranger and producer than most of the artists she might have copied from and her songs are mostly far superior to their inspirations (exceptions include Craig Armstrong for example, who is a genius composer and arranger and his songs are at least as wonderful as Yoko’s “versions”). If it weren’t for YK, I would not have known those songs anyway. So it’s really a question of ethics and artistic integrity, which is Yoko’s personal matter; and a question of law, which is only between YK and the original composers.
Not too long ago, I have become good friends with somebody with whom YK has collaborated very closely and very frequently. I don’t want to brag and therefore I am not disclosing his/her name and identity. I don’t want to push the YK angle between us too much, but do you think one day I should open this topic and ask him/her about this? Maybe we can get answers, but do we want to know? I’m not sure, really.
@Yyrkoon
Hey Nitrus, thanks for your comment!
I'm a composer myself, although it is not my full time job, but I think I also understand the way Yoko Kanno works when she "reuses" some parts of a music or a whole music.
But it's delicate to say she should have to communicate with the concerned artists, because she would certainly have been refused or asked for some money, and she would have certainly declined the offer, and nobody would never have known her versions.
I believe anyone should be able to write the music he wants, and I like to think of a stolen music as a tribute, especially because Yoko Kanno almost always make another piece of music out of another one. But my point is that actually she makes a new original music every time (I have to add "almost" because there are awkward exceptions).
For example I'd like to speak a little about Cyberbird, because this is one of the most delicate "reusing" she made, but I don't think her work is shameful.
What is true is that it is insanely similar to Battersea from Hooverphonic, except her strings arrangement and recording are far better, and the way she mixed all her Gabriela Robin voices altogether is genius. There's also this silent passage which is not in the original version (she made a 6 minutes song out of a 4 minutes one, so that's a good thing there are some original passages too), and her gibberish melts better with the music than the English lyrics.
But, the structure of the song is different (Cyberbird begins directly with all the strings and the voices for example) and the main melody is very different (just the first notes of the vocal part are the same), enough for me to say it's not a copy, or even a better copy. It's a new original music, very strangely sounding like the original one, but it's not a copy. She may have reused the same chords succession (while actually she did a few adjustments), but she did almost everything again, she composed again a good part of it, and she arranged everything with her style (and recorded a complex chorus with only her voice...).
There's also Heaven's not Enough which shares only the same 4 repetitive notes with Craig Armstrong's Wake Up In New York, but you cannot really say there's plagiarism (except she reused tons of things in that album so actually we know it's not a coincidence).
Actually, I'd say "plagiarism" when a person just takes a song and re-records it without doing anything, and especially if the same structure, vocal melody and lyrics are conserved. it's something hard to tell, but I'm convinced Yoko Kanno always works from A to Z even when she reuses another music.
After, concerning the music you mentioned, it's really possible she got inspired after listening to Morning in Montana, it's difficult to be sure though, but it's different enough for me not to be concerned.
Another interesting fact I found out is that usually experienced musicians and especially composers don't really accuse Yoko Kanno of plagiarism whereas other persons will do that more easily. I think musicians all know that you never writes a music out of nothing, you always have something in your head like the last music you liked or listened to, or a music you want to create the same atmosphere. And eventually, in the end, it will result in something totally different, but sometimes you want to try using the same chords and the same ideas the original music was created with, and it sounds (more or less) a bit alike.
I also remember watching an interview from Cowboy Bebop when she said that she often listens to other songs and when she likes something she just takes it and tries to use it. It's said with such innocence it's really funny and shameful.
May I ask you something concerning your work? Are you a professional, and if that's the case would you mind sharing with us some of your works? Cheesy
Concerning your friend, I'm really intrigued, of course that would be great if he/she shares with us some interesting facts he/she had when working with Yoko Kanno, especially concerning this aspect of her works.
snrihc219 发表于 2014-8-17 10:31
很想知道几位对菅野比较了解的人对菅野抄袭这一争论的看法。
贴几个现成链接，可能需要番羽土啬。
音乐上抄袭的定义我记得是旋律8个小节完全相同才算抄袭
不是数秒，或者听起来编曲相似之类
求懂音乐的扒谱看看不就知道是不是抄
本帖最后由 飓风之翼 于 2014-8-17 13:28 编辑
lyyr 发表于 2014-8-17 11:27
我不否认我是菅野青
但我TM说了菅野就是完美无缺了？我说了菅野这些年的音乐突破自己屡创高峰就是好谁反对 ...
看来你还真是情绪激动，但该写的还是要写，因为不是只写给你看。你平静下来再看好了。
1、你不同意我的观点，好好说出理由；我不认可你的反驳，我再说出我的理由，讨论下来，觉得对的就接受，觉得还是不能认可的先保留。我很希望有人来反驳，观点的碰撞才有意义——前提是不要TM来TM去。情绪不产生道理。
2、“《地球少女》没法狡辩就说手误了”
有错就纠正，没什么了不起。倒是把自己的曲解和别人没说的东西硬加上去、还要硬说他人是狡辩，算是怎么一回事？说的是你的第一段的2、3、4行。
3、”别人说《创圣》音乐技巧水准高，你就扯配乐的本质“
配乐的本质高于技巧就是我的核心观点，评价任何人、任何剧都一样。
不是说你用了多少种和弦、12音、无调性、半音阶之类，配乐质量就高。根据信息量的原则，在人物、台词、动作、镜头占据大头的情况下，有着包括音量在内的各种限制，留给BGM的信息空间相当有限。充分利用这一空间的方法就是以尽量高效明快的方法展现BGM对剧本身的推动作用。过度在意技巧不但妨碍音乐表现力，甚至对观众如何接受影片主要想表达的东西都是一种伤害，因为这是信息溢出。在这种情况下，不要说那些复杂的技巧了，很多情况下复调都不一定施展得开。
你可以翻翻任意一本影视配乐分析方面的教程，看看有哪本是一个劲讲作曲技巧的。形象、色彩、搭配、情感、气氛、音响效果，这才是配乐分析首先应关注的东西。
4、我认为《坂道》不及CB的理由之前写得明明白白，不知道你是不是没看见，那就再重复一遍：除非有特殊要求非用改编不可，原创的价值始终大于改编。这是我的价值观之二。当然如果你告诉我渡边想要的就是改编、所以这个观念不适用于坂道，那我纠正，因为没买过坂道的碟没看过booklet，不知道渡边的本意。
5、关于狼雨：你对”全部“二字的批评正确，这个词不能乱用，确实需要修正。但不代表狼雨——花瓣舞——残响的冷色调音乐脉络就不存在。
YK大多数作品是多种元素的混搭（当然好的作品肯定搭配得有主次有结构），这就意味着寻找前后作品之间的脉络时只能先进行分解，部分对部分地分析。不提巴西音乐元素是因为这对分析狼雨——花瓣舞——残响的冷色调音乐脉络没有任何意义，是无效样本（如果要分析YK运用热带雨林民族音乐元素的脉络，这才用得上）。如果要分析一国的油画史，需要先说说这国的手工艺品吗？
之所以认为残响=攻壳+狼雨也是同理，在同样是冷色的部分（而且是主体部分）中有着审美和理念的继承，这种相似并非偶然，就摆在那儿。
顺带一提，我的价值观之三：我不喜欢“玩”字和“玩音乐”的态度，而更欣赏“发自内心的严肃与真诚”。
6、OST有两种评价尺度：单独听，放在片中观察音乐与画面的结合。
以前者而言，就是”残响音乐本身不及后两者“。这和听感有一定关系。而有些设计并不是基于单听的原则，超出了这个“本身”。单听无感、放在片子里高能的OST数不胜数。
至于后者，从音画搭配的层面看，不对电波的音乐类型一样可以观察，因为音乐对场景的推动可以超越音乐类型本身。再讨厌电音的人也知道有些地方用上电吉他会有奇效。比如残响第4话的高潮部分简直神来之笔，但is单听就没这个感动程度。
音乐审美并不是只看心情，走到哪里算哪里。审美是有理念的，代表有思考有理由。写这么多就是把部分理念写在这儿，有理念，成体系，有标准，则有评价，这样才能避免信口开河。
所以，少点情绪化。当然认不认同这些理念不是我的事，不能强求。
本帖最后由 lyyr 于 2014-8-17 14:30 编辑
飓风之翼 发表于 2014-8-17 13:15
看来你还真是情绪激动，但该写的还是要写，因为不是只写给你看。你平静下来再看好了。
1、你不同意我的观 ...
1. 我只不过说你是伪科普，也好好说了理由（当然你会说是手误，是你的词用的“不准确”，是我“曲解”了你的意思），是你先给我扣了一顶“你讨厌的只不过是有人认为你的偶像有缺点而已”的帽子的，为什么我不能激动
2. 关于地球少女，承认说错就行，我说了什么“自己的曲解和别人没说的东西硬加上去”？
3,4. 我都看笑了，你看了《创圣》和《坂道》的动画吗？既然要说配乐，等你看完我们再讨论；3刚说过配乐要怎样怎样，4就来句我没看过自打脸
5. 你承认狼雨不是全部冷色调和北欧音乐就行，至于后面一大段割裂同一作品OST曲目之间的联系非要找脉络的说法，你能说服你自己就行，不要拿来说服我了
6. 这时候又说“单独听”和“结合论”两种了，之前你回我帖的时候可没这么说
综上所述，包括我上面的回帖，我说你是“貌似正经的伪科普”有半点说错？
最后没看出你有理念有标准有思考，主观性倒是明显看出来了
另外这是我最后回你了，对你自我意识那么强，“吾即是客观”的人多说也是无益
又见销量得奖至上论。
创圣两部、倒A、艾斯嘉科尼TV和剧场我都看了。倒A和艾斯嘉科尼看得听得津津有味，创圣有部分曲子（比如sal）还可以，战斗场面。。。创圣EVOL各种违和不适到爆。
交响乐用来搞笑——默片时代喜剧片的管弦配乐可不少，猫和老鼠里也有例子。
acg非学院派没几个能写出像样点的交响乐，这倒是事实。不过YK不是纯粹的非学院派，科班训练的底子杠杠的，就是缺个学位。
漫画原作？抱歉，片子到了导演手中就得接受导演的诠释。
非理性的氛围没什么好说的。闪人。
本帖最后由 飓风之翼 于 2014-8-17 15:05 编辑
洋森破 发表于 2014-8-17 14:30
“YK不是纯粹的非学院派，科班训练的底子杠杠的，就是缺个学位。”
你又是从哪看到yk经过科班训练？ ...
听。有没有学过科班的东西能听出来。你觉得那些科班的技巧是从石头缝里蹦出来的？她跟东京爱乐接触的时候就什么都不做？与沟口肇就没有半点切磋交流？
顺便，学院派不等于从音乐学院毕业。伊福部昭、吉松隆完全是自学的，但他们是标准的学院派。伊福部昭后来还进了音乐学院当老师，他的《管弦乐法》是很多地方的必备教材。
原作只是基础，到了导演手里就是二度创作。基本原理，不管是哪部片子。
我也曾经很相信评奖，但看了最近一期东京博览会还是文化厅的评奖，是什么片子拿了动画大奖，想想还是算了，仅供参考。我不否定评奖的价值，但不代表只有它有价值，作出个人的判断就没有价值。你不能说魔戒拿了奥斯卡，同年的冷山就一无是处。看过历年东京博览会的各项获奖名单，有些片子也完全有实力拿下音乐奖。
违和不违和的判断同理，河森的片子又不是只看过创圣，MF一样浑身脑洞，为什么不违和？
每个人都有判断的权利，没有要求别人一定要接受自己判断的权利，但有把自己的判断说出来的权利。连这都搞不明白的话就真没什么可说了。
再见。
本帖最后由 lyyr 于 2014-8-17 15:11 编辑
原来现在说科班都可以不谈学位了
原来渡边可以把校园背景的jazz入门漫画改编成科幻公路动画的
原来说yk的作品得到了奖项的肯定就等于我们说其他作品一无是处了
原来创圣和MF的脑洞是一个层面上的
另外你有说出自己判断的权力，但是不代表在你说的漏洞百出的时候别人没有反驳你的权力
本帖最后由 飓风之翼 于 2014-8-17 15:30 编辑
lyyr 发表于 2014-8-17 13:32
1. 我只不过说你是伪科普，也好好说了理由（当然你会说是手误，是你的词用的“不准确”，是我“曲解”了你 ...
“3刚说过配乐要怎样怎样，4就来句我没看过自打脸”
原来你连OST里面的booklet是什么东西都不知道，还以为就是动画。原来没看过OST盒里的小册子就是没看过动画。算了。
“XX说法，你能说服你自己就行，不要拿来说服我了”
我从没打算说服你，谢谢。你那种研究宫廷油画史还得先研究该国少数民族手工艺品、因为“同是一国不能割裂”的想法也足够可笑。取样的基本原则就是相关性。
我不需要阐述观念的时候，为什么要统统说出来？后来说了，不就是看有人看上去不明白么。都是明朝史，我要讲李自成，需要先从利玛窦来华讲起吗？
主观性和思维逻辑性没有必然冲突，谢谢。
对于你们顾左右而言他的跳跃性、从来不看限定词就任意扩大范围的语文阅读习惯，也无话可说。再见。
本帖最后由 lyyr 于 2014-8-17 15:35 编辑
飓风之翼 发表于 2014-8-17 15:13
“3刚说过配乐要怎样怎样，4就来句我没看过自打脸”
原来你连OST里面的booklet是什么东西都不知道，还以为 ...
虽然本来不打算回你了，但是看到你污蔑我连booklet是什么都不知道实在忍不住
既然你看过《坂道》的动画了（当然你没看漫画和访谈嗯嗯），那么对你还在前面说坂道没有“特殊要求非用改编不可”，我只能表示匪夷所思无话可说，这不需要看漫画，也不需要看访谈
还有，同一个人同一张ost里的作品用同一国的艺术种类，一个朝代的历史相类比真的有可比性吗？如果你认为有，我同样无话可说
顾左右而言其他的不就是你吗，总之你默认自己伪科普了我就满意了，谢谢
说好了再见闪人，说到做到哦
本帖最后由 飓风之翼 于 2014-8-17 20:38 编辑
洋森破 发表于 2014-8-17 16:22
@飓风之翼 整理下你的思路
1 创圣及evol不如ta和ESCAFLOWNE
2 你承认了创圣的交响乐技巧性高
真是没完没了加莫名其妙。服了。说白了，你们喜欢近年的，认为有突破、拿了奖、销量高；我跟这几部相比更赞赏更早的几部，各有各的理由。既然有人提到所谓”现在的不如过去好”并问原因，我就帮他找一下可能的理由，说说我的观点，又不妨碍你们继续选择近年的作品。
反正都是YK自家的产品，无非从左边篮子放到右边篮子的区别。我认识的久石让fan也有更喜欢吉卜力配乐和更赞赏后期极简主义创作之分，怎么没见他们掐过？
这个话题再说下去没有一点意义，不过看到你这个整理还是回一下，算是批改一下语文的阅读理解题（还有，请把“思路”改成“观点”，这是两码事）：
1、正确
2、请把“承认了”的“了”字去掉。有“了”字意味着“本来不承认，后来承认”，而我从一开始就说创圣的技巧性很高。
3、请把“所以”改成“但是”，两字之差，意义完全不一样；逻辑上，配乐的本质优先于技巧，但从没说过配乐的本质跟技巧构成非此即彼绝对矛盾关系。如果觉得在有限的BGM空间中可以使用复杂技巧而且有办法不构成妨害，那就用。比如《破刃之剑》的那首sinfonia of battlefield，两方面都很成功。
4、“不作为至上标准”不等于“不承认获奖的成就”，这要我说多少次。
5、请把后半句去掉。”剥夺“和”不尊重“有很大区别，谁都做不了剥夺者。
6、子虚乌有，从未说过这句话。我之前说的是某人某句话有逻辑歧义，纯粹的语文问题。
7、这是我本来的观点，但你的总结漏了一条：我说过渡边有对改编的要求就修正观点。按前一楼的意思似乎是说访谈记里渡边有明确要求必须名作改编，那就先算作之前说的“除非有特殊要求”，那就把阿波罗和CB当作不可比，也不适用“原创大于改编”。
8、正确。
结果看下来8条总结只有2条正确。。。我该给几分？
作为一介路人的PS：从一些节目和上次的北大讲座来看，YK是个很随和风趣的阿姨，也很令人尊敬。但一些粉丝实在是奇怪。
尾浦音乐现在听中二味太浓，华而不实的，不耐听。
泽野的电子和交响玩得倒有点趣味和大气，不过最近接单急着赚钱，吃老本明显。歌姬的素质也一般般，流行萌味稍浓。
菅野这几年发挥算是没啥失衡，作品虽少，但素质稳定。追随她的音乐总能找到不少惊喜。对于听纯音乐初入门的人，又懒得到处找作品，听YK一堆音乐了解非常适合。
这个帖子爬楼爬到现在我还没看到神前晓和麻枝准的名字
----发送自 asus Nexus 7,Android 4.3
本帖最后由 wilsonvii 于 2014-8-19 22:49 编辑
osk666 发表于 2014-8-19 14:17
被天门吊打的水平。
我吐个槽，感觉没人提到不科学啊，以前还听朋友说有个什么QQ群，进群问题是牛逼的ACG音乐人是那两个，答案就是这两人
另外你提到天门，新海诚离了他真是不行，好希望他们在一起
菅野我有不少喜欢的曲子，但要说纯粹的BGM那真是一首有印象的都没有⋯⋯
osk666 发表于 2014-8-20 02:59
gal小家子玩玩还好说，
跟主楼说的这3人完全无法比，
有人提到才怪。说天门是因为他也是gal出来，
我认识他是跟诚哥搭档开始的，入圈晚嘛
引用第118楼1504649592于2014-08-16 12:06发表的:
看了MF和创圣感觉菅野洋子好nb，作曲真好听，于是就找她以前的作品来听，结果什么烂玩意
mf已经是洋子的中等水平了。如果不是小学生最近才入宅的话，只能说明电波对不上，请别黑。
----发送自 Sony M51w,Android 4.4.4
档次差太多。